Speaking of Spencer

Interview with NEXT-WAVE

Interview with Spencer Burke with Charlie Wear
September 2003

I recently traveled to the international headquarters of The Ooze, located 1 and 1/2 blocks from the Pacific Ocean in Newport Beach, CA. at Spencer Burke's garage. I was there to interview Spencer in connection with the publication of his new book, Making Sense of Church.

1. Spencer, I was personally touched by reading Making Sense of Church, what audience were you trying to reach with the book?

I saw this book as a bridge between my twenty-two years of experience in paid pastoral ministry and the last six years of non-institutionalized ministry with The Ooze. Since I have crossed the "bridge" between the institutional church and the "emerging" church, I wanted to speak to both audiences as "The Church." rather than as market segments of the church. Another potential audience for the book is people who have never been able to "make sense" of the Christian church. I hope this book will be a great step in that learning process.

2. As the founder of The Ooze, a published author, and now a church planter, are you encouraged or discouraged with the "church's" response to the cultural shifts we have experienced?

I think the answer is both, and...I am encouraged that people will not let the old power structures that have held us so tightly in the past keep them from following God's call on their heart, no matter what it takes. On the other hand, I'm a little concerned that Postmodern.Inc. has arrived on the scene and there are far too many discussions, products, or conferences that stylize with "coffee and candles" the gospel that deserves to be released.

3. If there were one point you would like to make with Making Sense of Church what would it be?

Inexpensive and clean solar energy needs two things to occur before it can be released,
1) we need to untether ourselves from the "man" at the power company who owns the power lines, and
2) we need to radically reevaluate the power needs we have to run our homes.
Likewise, in the church, we need to reevaluate our consumption needs which may allow us to unplug from traditional structures, theologies, or funding and through deep contemplation and soul searching ask what is it that we need to be authentic followers of Christ in the 21st century, thus allowing God's Spirit to transcend any human institution and free up the gospel.

4. In your book you use metaphors for transition to illustrate the shifts you have sensed in the church. Which metaphor rings most true for you and why?

The movement from "Teacher to Facilitator" as it pertains to learning is particularly interesting to me. If we truly desire people to learn to follow Jesus, then teaching will be a part of the learning experience, but not the central component of the process. The implications could be far reaching. We could reevaluate church as a Sunday event. We could reconsider the concept of the "teacher equals the Leader," simply because they have pulpit power. And this could unleash many different gifts of expression in the body of Christ giving equal footing to acts of service, advocacy, arts, experiential learning, and who knows what other means of expressing the gospel.

5. Any closing words you have for Next-Wave readers?

Whatever this cause, cultural shift, movement is, it really is in its infancy. Let's be slow to judge it. Let's give it plenty of room to grow and mature. Let's be careful to not shrink-wrap and package it as the latest and greatest thing. I would encourage people to find as many ways as possible to continue in the community and the conversation what God has for us.

Spencer Burke's Making Sense of Church

February 09, 2004
Review from Justin Baeder

I've started Spencer Burke's community-produced new book Making Sense of Church, which is about half excerpts from forum posts on The Ooze and half Burke's commentary. While this strikes me as a kind of copout way to write a book, it truly reflects the spirit of The Ooze and the emergent church in general - wisdom comes from the community, not just one important person.

You've probably seen this posted elsewhere, but the book is arranged along seven metaphors in transition between the modern church and the emergent church:

Tour Guide to Traveler - a Conversation about Leadership
Teacher to Facilitator - a Conversation about Learning
Hero to Human - a Conversation about Spiritual Growth
Consumer to Steward - a Conversation about Ministry
Retailer to Wholesaler - A Conversation about Missions
Adversary to Ally - a Conversation about Faith
Warrior to Gardener - a Conversation about Evangelism

Metaphor is an appropriate way to address subjects that crack under too much analytical pressure such as the nature of the church in the postmodern matrix. Andrew Jones is doing a pretty good job of "defining" the emergent church (at the request of a magazine), but it's still a term that eludes real definition, and is better described by metaphor.

Bygone Days and Cool Cliches

September 18, 2003
Reviewer: Thomas Hohstadt, from Odessa, TX United States

Spencer Burke is the right man at the right place at the right time. He enjoys a ringside seat in the dramatic dialogue between the church of history and the church of post-history. He stands in the middle between where God has been and where God is going. No iconoclast, Burke embraces both past and future while challenging-at the same time-the dead metaphors of a passing culture and the overnight clichés of the new "cool" culture. Throughout his book, he blows away church leaders at both ends of the spectrum with the "extreme reality" of a loving Christ."

This Book has Attitude. The Right Kind of Attitude

September 22, 2003
Reviewer: Jeremiah Smith from Manchester, NH United States

I have to admit that my shelves are getting a bit too full of books that teach us all about postmodernism and how the church should respond. I wasn't sure if I really wanted to read another one, but when I saw that Making Sense of Church was written by Spencer Burke, founder of TheOoze.com, I knew this one would be worth reading. It's not because he has become a "voice" for postmodern ministry, but because he has enabled so many other voices to be heard.

And that's what makes this book so unique. Spencer gives voice to those who would otherwise go unheard. This is more a collection of viewpoints-often conflicting-than it is a traditional book. Each chapter is a mixture of observations from his personal journey with dozens of posts from TheOoze's discussion boards.

This blending of viewpoints accomplishes what the author hopes the church can do-enter "an era where we can have meaningful, compassionate conversations with each other, no matter where our allegiances lie-modern or postmodern, Eastern Orthodox or Catholic, mega church or house church."

Admittedly, for the first few chapters I felt like this was territory that's already been explored. Some of the ideas are covered elsewhere by popular authors like Leonard Sweet. It's the later chapters that made the book worth it for me. Chapter 7, "Adversary to Ally," makes me carry on some rather uncomfortable internal dialogue. Some of the chapter frustrated or even angered me, which is why this book needs to be read. It forces me to ask some of the questions I don't want to ask, because I'm afraid of the answers I may find. In reality, what I'm discovering is that they actually lead to even deeper and more challenging questions. Which in turn shapes me into a more honest and faithful follower of Jesus.

Can this book be one part of "a bridge between these camps" of modern and postmodern argument within the church? Between conservative and liberal? As I read the book, I can easily see fundamentalists dubbing this liberalism and the liberal camp thinking some of the observations are boringly conservative. Hopefully we can embrace the attitude that this book communicates-an attitude that seeks to understand before it tries to be understood. An attitude of deep, rich, and meaningful conversation.

Making Sense makes Sense!

September 22, 2003
Reviewer: Randy Daniel from Porterville, Ca United States

For the past couple of years I have been searching for a book that could help others understand where I'm comming from. Most books I have read on the subject of the Postmodern church have either been too narrow in scope, or too smug in tone. Spencer has achieved something in this book that few others are able to do; that is to bridge the gap between current and future leaders in the church. His use of metaphor transcendes the traditional turf wars we often fall into, and helps to create a new common ground. I highly recommend this book for anyone interested in the conversation, whether your are a long time participant or listening in for the first time.

The Synthesis of Previously Opposing Theologies

September 23, 2003
Reviewer: Tammy Schoch, from Defiance, Ohio, United States

i LOVE spencer's book. i read it in one day. he sums things up with an eye toward the big picture, and without bitterness toward anyone, but with so much honesty. i'm very impressed. i especially enjoyed the first and last chapters --- very strong intro and wrap up. even though i've been a regular at theOOZE for a few years, i didn't know much about his background. spencer's history of witnessing to everything that moved, and his black and white thinking, was a lot like my husband when i met him in 1980. spencer's struggle with anxiety and admitting his depression to his peers (pages 35-36) describes so well what i went through in 1998, while pastoring a church with my husband. it's no wonder that we feel connected to him so easily! this is a quality piece of work. even my mennonite parents, who have heard us speak of theOOZE but who don't really get what it is, looked through the book. they were over to visit us last night. they were caught by the fact that their 2 daughters and their granddaughter were quoted in it -- then the ideas within the book itself got their attention. we talked about calvinisn and arminianism, and how both hold valuable truth for our lives. this very idea of the synthesis of previously opposing theologies, personifies the tenor of this book, and of the conversations at theOOZE. i believe this sort of thinking is central to the future of the church. it's well worth your money. and i'm not a person who spends much money on books. ecclesiastes says 'of the making of many books, there is no end.' but this is one book that stands out from the rest.

It's a Travel Guide

September 24, 2003
Reviewer: Darryl S. Dash, from Etobicoke, ON Canada

There are a lot of good books on the Emerging Church out there. What Spencer Burke has done, however, is unique. He refuses to bash the modern church or hype the postmodern church. Instead, he brings us along on his journey, along with the contributions of others. It's not just a book; it's also a travel guide. Highly recommended.

Conversation for the Journey

September 28, 2003
Reviewer: RACHEL VIVIEN CUNLIFFE from New Zealand

In "Making Sense of Church", Spencer Burke describes some of the broader changes in society and then moves on to changes within the church -- trying to bridge a gap between the "emerging" and "established" church.

"It's simply about the questions, hopes, and fears of real people... it's a conversation about church - The Church."

Spencer has done an excellent job of weaving together conversations from TheOooze message boards with his own experiences on various topics: leadership, teaching, growth, ministry, mission, faith and evangelism.

I really appreciated his two identity metaphors for church leadership: the tour guide versus the fellow traveller.

Here's a summary of his points for these two:

Tour Guide: motivated by fear, gets their sense of worth from their position of authority and performance, needs to stick to 'The Route' and keep others on it: my job is to tell you exactly what to do, sits behind the wheel all the time, knows the 'right' and 'best' ways, an expert with a reputation to uphold, believes 'I must know the right answer'

Fellow Traveller: sense of worth comes from Jesus Christ, true to themselves: free to wander and rest when they need to, free to love and be loved, unafraid of making mistakes or losing their position, I'm on the journey and I'm learning from you too, open to finding new ways to do things: 'I don't have to have it all figured out'

Making Sense of Church is a great read -- actually it's my first "postmodern" book that I've read, and I found it reassuring to see others thinking along similar lines to the things I have been wondering about and questioning. Spencer has pulled quotes from a great well of thoughtful, inspiring and encouraging thinkers at TheOoze and I highly commend this book to you.

A Conversation for the Puzzle

October 2, 2003
Reviewer: Joseph R. Myers from Cincinnati, Oh

If you want to really have an effect on a person's life change their metaphor.

Spencer sees clearly the emerging metaphors. From his perspective (peering in on a conversation at theOoze.com), he has synthesized the story of many on the journey.

Are you trying to help your congregation, family, or yourself live in the changing culture? This is the essential primer!

Different Metaphors to Guide Your Church

October 31, 2003
Reviewer: Alan Hartung, from Venice, CA

Spencer Burke offers an insighful view into the metaphors which have been guiding the established evangelical church here in the West. Rather than just a stinging critique of the established church, Spencer offers different metaphors which will help guide the church in this postmodern age.

The contributions by many who post on theooze offer a variety of perspectives and paints an interesting picture of the church in today's age. Spencer brings these conversations from theooze in to each chapter showing this isn't just one man's vision for the church, this is what God is inspiring in the body of Christ.